Running out of arguments
Published by Sean August 30th, 2005 in Appeasement & Capitulation, IraqIt goes without saying that some arguments are just plain bad, and that their utilization can only be seen as the last desperate conceptions of a dying movement. In this category, there can be no greater, more obvious example than the “why don’t you send your kids” remonstration so commonly employed by the new left.
The latest purveyor of this epithet is none other than Cindy Sheehan, who appears to be the mouthpiece for this particular variation: “[George W. Bush], if it’s such a noble cause, have you asked your daughters to enlist? Have you encouraged them to go take the place of soldiers who are on their third tour of duty?”
For the sake of argument, let’s ignore for just a moment the simple fact that Jenna and Barbara are …. well …. not exactly “military material.”
Oh, the hell with it - they’re quintessential club-scene, booze-soaked sorority girls whose beauty and pure sex appeal greatly surpass their cognitive abilities (I don’t necessarily think that’s abad thing, mind you; I’m friends with plenty of this type, and have certainly dated my fair share).
I will also bypass the fact that parents cannot “send” their children to fight in Iraq any more than they can send them to the far side of the moon. The only Americans fighting in Iraq are adults who have freely enlisted in the military. This is unrelated to Sheehan’s statement, but quite pertinent to those who utilize the word “send” in an unforgivably promiscuous manner.
Oh, and incidentally, despite whatever nefarious propaganda you choose to buy into, there are several members of Congress with children serving to protect our nation.
Setting all that aside, the one point that should be made - yet has been largely ignored - is that those who have a personal interest in avoiding war are, in fact, the very last people who should be making decisions about whether or not one is necessary. In fact, I would consider it to be the apex of immorality for any member of Congress with a child in the military to vote against a declaration of war, or other resolution authorizing the use of military force (if they were against said resolution, abstaining from the vote would be a proper course of action, if for no other reason than to avoid the appearance of impropriety).
No leader should be asking herself “What will happen to my child if I vote to authorize the use of force?” Just look at Cindy Sheehan: Do you honestly want this woman deciding when it is appropriate to go to war? She has recently made public her view that not only was intervention in Iraq inappropriate, but that involvement in Afghanistan was a mistake as well, stating that we “should have gone after al-Qaida and maybe not after the country of Afghanistan.” She doesn’t specify how, probably because such a plan does not exist even in the abstract.
The appeasers are running out of arguments, and it’s starting to show. It’s time for moderate Democrats to break down the door to Howard Dean’s office and remind him that the spastic demographic he’s been playing to is circling the bowl.
49 Responses to “Running out of arguments”
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Dear Sir,
Perhaps little brats such as the Bush twins should be precisely who we are sending to war. Then maybe they will understand how great our country is and why we love it so. To give credit where credit is due however, they are only following in the daddy’s footsteps so who can blame them? I mean we are talking about a man who’s flashbacks of the war are of blackouts.
Were you trying to make a point here, or just relishing an opportunity to call the Bush twins “brats”? What possible purpose could their presence in Iraq serve, other than to fulfill your own morbid demands?
Thank goodness for most of us that our parents cannot send us to Iraq! And to think, I thought I was in for it when I heard “Go to your room.” Imagine instead if it were “Pack your bags, you’re going to Iraq.”
Blackouts? Much like your intellectual attempts?
Take a deep breath and go pet yourself.
I would not think it would be a morbid demand. I would say, as I said before, perhaps then people such as yourself who are the trumpet section for the Buch camp would understand the meaning of going to war. Look at you Sean. You are of perfect age to fight… and yet here you sit. Perhaps you think spouting off your ideals on some web-blog is “doing your part” but would you be willing to go over there? If it is a cause you believe in put your money where your mouth is.
Ah. I see. The ol’ “you can’t argue in favor of the war unless you’re in the military argument.”
You’re damn right I would be willing to go over there. I’m asthmatic - not to the degree that I am seriously disabled, but enough to keep me out of the Army and Marines (I’ve talked to recruiters from both). I’m not “doing my part;” I’m not doing anything except talking. And I have no compunction about saying that. I am forever indebted to the men and women of our armed forces. What on earth gave you the idea that I thought otherwise? Do yourself a favor and read my blog before randomly assigning opinions to its author.
But that’s beside the point. I’ve never made any bones about the fact that war is hell. In fact, I’ve made that point on numerous occasions. But one’s inability or unwillingness to serve in the military does not void their arguments in favor of military action. To say that it does is to commit a logical fallacy.
Oh, and incidentally, the vast majority of troops supported Bush in last year’s election. So even if I were in the military, chances are quite good that my opinions would be the same.
Tyler,
I guess you’re back from petting yourself. Question: Are you doing your part? As it seems very important to you for others to go in your stead, I would wonder if you are living up to your expectations/demands of others.
Then again, like most in the collective side of the spectrum, you would rather sponge off of others and sacrifice them as opposed to actually producing for yourself. That’s why you wouldn’t mind seeing taxes go up, just to make sure the ‘insert class warfare line here’ … “rich” … don’t get away with not paying ‘their share.’
Just as you are mad/hateful of President Bush (and that’s with an ’s’ and not a ‘c’ sweetheart) for actually suggesting the idea that American citizens can be responsible for their own futures. Gasp. That means actually allowing them to do with their own money as they please. Gasp. That means your collectivist friends can’t touch that money. Gasp! What an outrage! Those damn Republicans are tampering with our money!
I have no idea what gave either one of you the idea that I am a “blue stater.” I am not now nor have I ever believed of voted for one specific political party, I vote for the person. As to what am I doing? Try Peace Corp for 24 months buddy. Also the ashthma excuse is one of the more pathetic ones I have ever heard and to answer your question… yes I do think if you believe in something you should have to fight for it. Thats why I am at every gay pride parade, every free speech rally, a card carring member of the ACLU and attend a number of other functions relating to my beliefs. Also Travis the fact that you can only rely on cheap insults to make your point only drives home the fact that you are full of it. Sean are you sure you aren’t going to war because deep down in your heart you know that killing people is wrong… or perhaps you couldn’t kill someone yourself? I know you won’t be honest in you little forum here but seriously come up with a better excuse than “My mommy won’t let me play with you because I have an asthma.” I used that when I was 13 and didn’t want to cut the grass for goodness sakes.
Also Travis, with regards to people handling our money, I do recall your friends up in Washington telling the American people that this war would pay for its self and be over in 6 months… hummm…
Hey guess what. When I was talking to the Marine recruiters with a buddy of mine they wouldn’t let him in because of his asthma, nor I because of my back issues. My spine is fine as far as I’m concerned, but you have to be 100%. Just so you know, because it seems you’ve not gone to a recruiter to see for yourself.
Do be a dear and kindly shut your word hole about the asthma though as it is not an excuse. The military will only allow someone to have very minor health issues to enter the military. Defrauding that to gain admittance is a very bad offense.
So you are for tribal warfare? Do you desire to see groups exerting force on other groups instead of rational individuals talking out their issues in a civilized manner? Is that why you are for the gay tribe? The ACLU tribe? The “Bush should send his beautiful daughters to Iraq because I’m a whiny Liberal” tribe? etc?
And help us all out and find a source for that last “quote.” It will help me sleep better at night knowing who wrote that piece of tabloid trash.
Also, Tyler, the ACLU is a socialist institution started by a socialist and still run by socialists with socialist goals. That doesn’t say much for you other than your collectivist tendencies, hence the suggestion that you were a mindless cog in the blue state collective. My apologies for being so far from the truth.
Donald Rumsfeld said that the war would pay for its self in 6 months and he also said “It will be a cake walk.” 100%… BS you have to be %100. Colin Powell stated less than six months ago with regards to our new recruits…”At this point we are scraping the bottom of the barrel.”
“Do you desire to see groups exerting force on other groups instead of rational individuals talking out their issues in a civilized manner?”
No you dumba** clearly that is what you wish because as I recall the group exerting force would be America. If we are so concerned about tribal warfare or any of those issues then why are we not in Africa RIGHT NOW!!! I believe even the people in the Bush administration have used the word Genocide. You, republicans, talk a big talk but you never seem to walk the walk. If we are concerned about peoples wellfare around then world then it should be the whole world… not just to portion sitting on an oil field. By the way, could someone tell me Bush’s reasoning for going to war this week?
And Travis I assume you believe we live in a democracy?
Aghh! You are so right!
“And Travis I assume you believe we live in a democracy?”
- no. We have an oligarchy by default due to most peoples apathy towards politics and their inability to form thoughts outside of what Katie Couric says to think…
Sorry, Tyler. I have to head for class right now. I’ll be back on when I can later.
I do appreciate the conversation though. Let’s continue this later.
Me to Travis… always fun to debate. However just to clarify we do not live in an oligarchy by default. This country was set up as a Republic with democraticly elected officials. It has never been nor will it ever be a true democracy.
Tyler:
If you’re going to post here, refrain from calling other commenters names - doing so lowers the level of conversation to that of the excremental, as well as makes you look silly (I would demand the same from Travis, but I haven’t needed to because he doesn’t do that).
Also, I think what Travis is trying to say is that we have become an Oligarchy, regardless of how we were set up (these are two different things). And an oligarchy can be a republic with democratically elected officials - they are not necessarily mutually exclusive concepts.
Thank you for poking fun at my health problems; I haven’t heard that kind of putdown since grade school. Are you seriously so hard-up for a logical point that you’ve resorted to calling my occasional inability to breathe an “excuse”? Do us all a favor and spare us the ad hominem attacks, especially when they belittle something that can greatly affect someone’s lifestyle. I think an apology is in order here, but that’s up to you….
Ask any member of the armed forces and they will tell you: Being diagnosed as asthmatic disqualifies you from serving in the military. Period. They check your records, and don’t care whether or not some guy named Tyler thinks it’s an excuse.
Killing someone would be difficult, I’ll grant you that. But if placed in a situation that demanded my doing so, I’m fairly certain that I would be up to the task. You make the pacifist claim that “killing people is wrong.” Try applying that approach when your life, liberty, or the life and liberty of those you love is on the line and see how far you get.
Oh, and I don’t know anything “in my heart,” nor do I claim to. Hippocrates did away with that concept in the 3rd Century, B.C.E. You may be fond of making decisions based on what “feels” right, but I prefer to use reason as my guide.
….and I am also enjoying this, even if it’s from more of a spectator’s position. Thanks, guys - you’ve just made this post the most commented one in the history of my blog. Cooool.
Sean and Travis,
there are many ways in which you can participate in the war effort, not just on the front lines. You don’t have to be a “gun toten commando.” Why are you not helping with the rebuilding effort? Why haven’t you gone to Halliburton Square… oh I mean Baghdad and assisted those who are not member’s of the Armed Service with all there efforts? While I do apologize for calling Travis a dumba** some time you have to call it like you see it! LOL JK Travis! I also ask again, what in the heck are we doing there? Now I am not naive enough to say we should just leave, doing that would cause massive bloodshed and civil was. It seems to me, however, that before we went to war with Iraq Alqueda was a small group of cells. Now it has become an international movement. When pay say things about 9/11 such as “Do you think it will happen again.” It is my belief that due to our complete mishandling of the situation in the Middle East it is not a matter of “if” it is a matter of “when.” This “war on terror” is going to continue for the remainder of our natural lives. Why? I think it is because this administration does not understand that on our side of the playing field it is just that, “A war of Terror.” On the other side it is Jihad, a holy war of God. When people are uneducated and then blinded by religious ideology are asked to do anything… they do it. IE. Spanish Inquisition, Salem Witch Trials, Holocaust, the list could go on and on. If I told you to go out into Atlanta and blow up a building, meanwhile killing yourself in the process, you would look at me like I was crazy. (one would hope… you never know about republicans!! LOL ) But time and time again we see these events happening. All for the glory of God. Sadly the same thing is happening in America. Ask the families in Tennessee who last week buried their fallen sons. Rev. Phelps of Arkansas came with his church to protest the funerals. He had a loud speaker and signs saying “God is punishing you for protecting Faggots.” These soldiers by the way were not gay. If you would like I can email you the article. (P.S. same guy that protested during the Mathew Shepard trial.) The fact of the matter is this… War begets war. Violence begets Violence. Humans have known this for literally thousands of years. If you have time I recommend you read Agamemnon by Aeschylus. Dear old Aggie comes home from the Trojan war and his wife Clytemnestra has many wonderful things to say about men going off into battle. Being a pacifist is not the “wimpy” thing to do. It is early understanding that from the beginning of time people have thought that this next fight/battle/war would create peace. Alas it never has. My goodness the man that invented the gun said it would end war. He said that killing someone with out seeing the whites of their eyes had no honor and no man with honor would do such a thing. Read about what Oppenheimer said when he realized what he had created. Attack other countries will NEVER make us safer. The wisest of us have known this as I said for thousands of years. It’s just the whole God thing gets in the way and then we pick up our weapons. That brings up another issue I have with this administration while I am at it. How can we have a society in which everyone is equal it we turn around and say that God prefers some? I believe (actually I know) George Washington said “The United States was in no way founded on the Christian Doctrine.” News flash God shouldn’t and doesn’t live in Washington.
I will now exit the soap box… for the time being anyway!!!
Yes I know… when I get excited I don’t always proof read or spell check!
Sean covered what I was meaning. Thanks, Sean.
Fisking follows:
My company is involved with the rebuilding effort. For sake of security reasons, let’s keep them unnamed. I have a shirt and a sticker that say, “I (heart) Halliburton.”
What are we doing there? Slowly but surely we are helping secure Iraq, why? We so selfishly did not want their previous management acquiring more weapons of mass destruction and to continue being a de-stabilizer in the region. We so selfishly want a trade partner with Iraq that we are spending the resources and the lives to accomplish that end.
Oh yeah, and we’re killing Islamofascist terrorist scumbags.
A review of history long enough it should be a separate post is in order here, however for sake of room and readability; you are wrong on this point. Al Qaeda (The Base – roughly translated) has been around and growing since the early 1970’s. Review the Afghan/Russia conflict and you’ll see a young OBL leading charges against Russia. We were too busy State-side dealing with the U. Cal. Berkley student revolution and subsequent spread of the socialist organization known as the ACLU to notice much in Afghanistan and what terrorist group was blowing up what bus in Israel.
Free advice: Try to listen to more than democratic underground and the daily kos for news information.
True it may, and probably will, continue for the rest of our lives. It is not, however, due to the reasons you point out; or your reasoning (although close) points to back up your claim.
The reason the War on Terror will not be won in our lifetime is the wretched policy of Altruism. We have placed the concerns of saving civilian lives above achieving mission objectives. We have placed the concerns of not offending this culture of death by not blowing up every Mosque we see. We should have carpet bombed every square inch of sand over there and turned it into glass for being so hot.
Alas, that option is no longer available. We are there, we are making progress; we have freed the Iraqis, they appreciate it regardless of what the Liberal media says, and we have not bloodied our hands in doing so. Other than continuing this terrible doctrine that places our troops on the same moral level as the Islamofascist terrorist scum.
The fact that a Marine was brought up on charges for shooting a wounded/pre-dead terrorist instead of checking his condition by kneeling and exposing himself to potential harm is appalling. The same for the looters (not to shift gears) in the Gulf States. Shoot on site, no arrests; shoot to kill anyone looting. Too many resources are being wasted on arresting these scumbags. Sigh…
Not unless the enemy is crushed. Case and point, Japan… Germany… Mexico… etc etc.
Sorry I didn’t get here earlier. Class didn’t get out until 8:40 and then I had dinner with my wife. We watched some tragedy TV with the people that thought they would wait out the hurricane and are now pissed that the situation has turned hellish. I do feel sorrow for those that have lost their homes (that’s why you have insurance) and for those that could not/did not evacuate do to reasons beyond their control. As for the individuals that refused the warnings for the week before… tough break.
I patiently wait for a reaction. Ball is in your court, Tyler.
Ya’ll I have to tell you I think you are swallowing the lines you are being fed hook line and sinker. First of all ABL and all the rest of the islamofacist’s… why are we dealing with them? Why are they in power? Because we put them there. How does ABL know how to train his troops? Because we taught him how. The nearsightedness of our country is appalling. Since you brought it up just look at the gulf states. The city officials of New Orleans and the rest of the state have been begging for years for money to reinforce the dam system there. Specifically they asked congress less than six weeks ago. Why did we turn them down? Because, and I quote, “We cannot divert valuable monetary resources while the war in the Middle East continues.” I will stop there as that is a whole different debate. The second thing I would like to talk about is “Crushing our enemies.” You named Germany, Japan and Mexico. You are correct the Allied forces did defeat those enemies. Note again the ALLIED forces defeated those enemies. Also that is what 9-11 taught us. Germany was a clearly defined enemy. Japan was a clearly defined enemy. You can look on a map and see both those countries. The war on terror has no map. Even the soldiers there say they don’t know who is their friend and who is their enemy. What is the answer? Do we just kill them all? Let us not for get they are also here… among us. Japan attacked on December 7th. They killed thousands but we knew who the enemy was. We do not here. Also they, meaning all three enemies you have stated, fought using weapons of war. Traditional warfare. 9-11, also note I lived in Manhattan during the time of 9-11, happened with a 99 cent box cutter I can buy down the street at Ace Hardware. Terrorists hold no allegiance to any specific country or government. The only chance we have is to educate, not kill. The pen will always be mightier than the sword. Also due to the fact that the current administration is “Bringing Jesus back to America,” your words were shoot to kill… some how I recall reading something like “thou shalt not kill.” While I understand these values may not be yours personally (goodness knows I would never call myself a Christian) but once again we, meaning America, say one thing and yet do another.
They are currupt enough to ‘beg’ for money that they will spend elsewhere. It wasn’t called the ‘Big Easy’ for nothing.
True there is not a specific State that we can attack. There are, however, terror sponsoring States. Iraq was one of them. Now we can point to an ideology/religion: Islam. Let that religion not go by unblamed. It is the root. There is no room for us ‘infidels’ in their religion. That is the enemy: intolerance. It’s funny how Muslims can exist in Israel and the West (i.e. - USA) and get along fine, yet go to a Muslim country and see how that goes for you.
We know who the enemy is. We just need to stop worrying about offending people and call a spade a spade.
They have their own ‘government’/authoritative body (I’m a political science major by the way) that they pledge their dying allegiance to. Educate? But that would mean pushing our Western values on them. I thought that was what pissed them off in the first place… according to some on the Left. The pen line… warm and fuzzy.
If faced with the opportunity to defend your life or the life of a loved one by killing those whom wish you harm, would you write about it and die or act and kill the enemy? Would you do it with the pen or the sword?
Call a spade a spade. I think if you will just listen to the troops coming home that is the one thing they all say about the whole situation. They don’t know who the enemy is. Islam is not a violent religion. Heck just think what America would be like it the Mormons, Branch Davidians or Heaven’s Gate people controlled everything. What about your good friend Pat Robertson? Christianity has quite a bit of blood on its hands. We (Americans) should look at our own history before we condemn anyone else for what they do. Some how you would think we would have learned something about insurgenant warfare during that other little problem about 20something years ago. Also there will be no hope if, as I said, people who are blind in their religious beliefs (meaning uneducated) are lead by fanatics. Just as an example look at the bounty we have out for OBL. First it was $25,000,000. That didn’t work so we upped it to $50,000,000. Right… like that was the problem. The random goat herder in Afghanistan who lives on a dollar a day stood there and said “$25,000,000… I don’t wipe my a** for $25,000,000.” Political Science? Guess what… Ann Rand doesn’t know everything.
Ayn I mean
That’s why it is stated in the Koran that the true believer of Allah will destroy all infidels and establish a global Islamic law? That’s why they see no problem with beheading ‘Infidels’? Is that why the Middle East used to be vibrant and thriving before Islam came and is now trapped 4 thousand years in the past?
Do a quick comparison with me. What virtues are held in the Western world and those that are held in the Islamic world?
West: Reason, Rights, and Science
Islam: Blind Faith, Dogma, and Submission
Compare what these differences mean. Compare and realize that it is only Western values that make the existence of the individual possible. And as a result of that, we in the West have achieved more and have earned more than any other system on the planet. For that fact, we are evil under the doctrine of Altruism and noble under the philosophy of Objectivism.
Which upholds Man as good, productive, and capable of noble deeds?
Which demands that man is evil from birth, and a scar on the face of the planet?
I realize I am off topic and am pointing out more of the flaws of Altruism and Environmentalism but it went with the flow.
And just so you know, regardless of where you stand, they consider you an Infidel too.
It’s sad to see you trying to grasp for something to throw at me. I dislike Mr. Robertson with the fire of a thousand suns for the record. I do not identify with him or his group in any way. The modern day witch doctor extracting money from people through guilt: Appalling.
More than you know. Refer to Mr. Robertson and Jerry F.
FYI: Political Science along with Computer Science dual major.
Prove Ayn Rand wrong…
Look at, study, and understand the basis of her philosophy before you begin to pick at it with thumbtacks. That was a weak statement written in an emotional moment. Do try again though. Trouble is, when you pick apart the philosophy of Rand’s you pick apart your own self-esteem and diminish your position in reality. Refer to the first block of this comment.
Oh yeah,
You forgot to answer my question:
You know what I’m asking here. {Ball is in your court} Your shot.
Don’t you think you are making a judgment over a whole group of people based on what a few have done? Yes there are fanatics over there but plenty of them live here to. I made the Pat Robertson comment because, yes, I believe Jesus is high jacking our country. If we are a country based on “Reason, Rights and Science” then why oh why are we talking about teaching Intelligent Design in our school systems? Why is Stem Cell research the Devil? Why do we legislate taste? Is it reasonable to think we will win the war on drugs? Is it reasonable to say “Crush all our enemies?” Is it reasonable to think the if Abortion is once again illegal than it will just go away? Is it reasonable to say “we had no idea this was going to happen…” when every single engineer who studied the levee system said it would be catastrophic if a hurricane hit New Orleans. Is it reasonable to ignore intelligence that says OBL is standing right behind you! I think you put America on little high of a pedestal. We are the “greatest” country in the world based on our own greedy consumer driven ethnocentricity view. When you say we have achieved more just what is it you mean? What have we achieved that is so great? Bearing in mind that we achieved that greatness at the cost of obliterating an ethnic group and enslaving another.
Death is not the worst thing that can happen to a person… and somethings are worth dying for.
Also trust me when I say there is nothing you can say that will suprise me nor become emotional.
Wow…. this is good. I have plently to say, but I’m busy creating wealth at the moment. I will point out, however, that teaching intelligent design is a far cry from preaching the virtues of poverty, banning movies and music, public executions, etc. (all of which were staples of the Taliban).
Not that I’m a proponent of intelligent design by any stretch of the imagination, mind you. I’m just pointing out that the issues the west deals with are much more benign than those presently dealt with by Islamic societies. Here, we’re debating gay marriage. In Saudi Arabia, they’re not debating whether or not homosexuality should be decriminalized. In fact, they have a nasty habit of executing homosexuals in that part of the world.
‘Tis a vast difference.
Because I am not in office yet.
Is it reasonable to only maim them? Is it in our best interest to allow them to become a threat? Have you ever gotten immunizations? Same thing.
We have stood alone against the long dark of human history.
We have made it known that individuals are best left alone to produce; it is far better than any collective.
We have set the standard by which every country looks up to.
We have started out with a country founded upon Reason and individual rights. (Leaving your racial points out of course)
We have not taken over the planet or our neighbors even though we could. We have the capability, yet we have the strength to not do so. Almost any other country in almost any other time period would not hold back.
We have atoned for our mistakes in our beginning. We have also gone a long way from upholding the individual.
Our people have invented, cured, created, produced, and broke the way clear for the rest of the world to see what is possible for Mankind. That is what Americans have achieved among other things.
Hi I’m Mathew Shepard have we met? All of the things you site Taliban for doing exist in America’s not so recent past. Also, yes, while they do not exist as official policy they are still widely used. We do execute people, (as a matter of fact it seems torture is our new fave.) we do want to ban books and movies (Does anyone remember when the last Harry Potter movie came out?) and we do persecute people for having different faiths/values/beliefs. By the way, I thought Saudi Arabia was our friend? (wink wink) America has not done anything to further the greater good of the world. Americans have. While we have made vast steps into the future we seem to forget everyone. How are we so great when there are still those that starve on our own soil? Many people said of the Germans after WWII, “How could they have allowed the holocaust to happen?” Aren’t we doing that right now? Aren’t we only concerned with our own gain while the rest of the world cries out for help? I will say that there are many things that I agree with when it comes to the republican ideals. But why, once again, has Jesus taken over Washington? Not to mention that he is not the Jesus that I have read about, but some warped version. The other day someone in my office was complaining that you can’t buy fruit grown in America anymore, it’s all from South America. Isn’t it better that way? I actually prefer an orange to the other little plant that they were exporting before. And yes I know they have all kinds of pesticides that we can’t use here… who is selling it to them? Like I said we say one thing and do another time and time again. America as a whole has a lot to learn about what greatness is. Does the fact the we could take over the world make us great? Powerful yes, but not great. Greatness comes from how you treat the least among you. Not just the ones with the most to donate to your campaign. How have we stood alone against the “Long Dark Human History.” If we are using human history as a time frame we have barely existed for the blink of an eye. I also notice that you didn’t choose to comment on the levee situation or the OBL comment. Also with crushing all our enemies… WE DON”T KNOW WHO THEY ARE. Are we just going to go over there and kill everyone in the region? That would be just a splendid idea. “We have a set the standard with which every country looks up too.” Have you ever been over seas? Well I can tell you from my travels that, at least in Europe, we are viewed as overly aggressive bullies who think we are better than everyone else. Before you ever start this was before 9-11 and no we weren’t banning French fries yet. Oh yeah the French were right huh? There were no WMDs. I wonder when that apology will happen. News flash… every society in power thinks it is the greatest and will never be defeated. Nothing could be farther from the truth. What 9-11 taught us was its not a country that will beat us… its one crazy person with a bomb… just one person. How do we fight that? Through warfare? Then were in the heck is OBL? I don’t know but I can tell you that I sure do sleep better at night knowing that the baseball players can’t stick needles up the behinds anymore. Incidentally I am leaving the office now so I won’t be able to post until Tuesday, my computer at home is having a new fan put in. I have greatly enjoyed our conversation today and I hope it can continue! Have a great and safe weekend Travis! Also FYI if you are in the N.Fulton area on Saturday there is a blood drive at 3000 Old Alabama Road. They are also taking food to the hurricane victims.
What is the greater good? By what standard do you claim it? By whose or what authority is someone else’s need a claim on our efforts? Thy name is Altruism, Tyler. Careful, or you’ll start sounding like Mr. Robertson.
Shouldn’t we be concerned with our own gain while not stealing from others? We have made our greatness, we have not looted it; we owe nothing to anyone. We have earned our place; we have not received it by alms. By what standard does the world deserve our help, Tyler? Does their need qualify as payment to our effort and productive capacity?
There are individuals who now know and those that have come before who knew what greatness is/was. The masses, the collectives; they are the ones who need to learn.
Oh boy, this may take a while to explain…
Throughout human history, there has always been conflict; man against man, man against nature, man against self, etc. Through the dark ages, these forms were all present and having a hay day. The reason we call them the ‘dark ages’ is because the light of Reason was not present. The Church held all the knowledge and kept the King and themselves in power by duping the peasants into accepting unearned guilt and shelling out money in penance for that unearned guilt.
Slowly but surely Reason emerged amongst a myriad of other changes during the period. (I know I’m leaving out a lot of information, but I’m not going to fill up this comment block with things you should know if you wish to continue this conversation. Refer to your history teacher.) The Renaissance, or the “Re-Birth” of Reason, took place and drove away the dark. Examine the explosion of new discoveries and inventions during that time; law of gravity, mathematics, astronomy, the printing press, Capitalism.
It was out of that setting that America was founded. It was not a pure separation from the dark ages however as we kept a Christian God outlook as the basis for our laws and not the facts of reality and Reason, but alas; 9 out of 10 isn’t too bad.
No other country has set forth such protections for the individual. The individual is the largest and most under represented minority in the world.
Consider the tribes in Africa and the Sky Scrappers of America. Compare the collectivist achievements and the achievements of individuals.
That is what America has stood alone against. The mindless, gray, collective. The EU is falling into that slumber and they are missing out on their chance at greatness.
We have stood against the idea that Man is a sacrificial animal either to some god or gods or to others; the State or some collective whim.
We have made clear the fact that Man has a right to exist for his own sake.
At least, that’s how I see it.
I have already pointed out who the enemy is. WE DO KNOW WHO THEY ARE. I have also explained about the corruption of the local government of Louisiana as the root of that levee issue. And I have also expounded upon the crushing of one’s foes as well. Did you not get the memo?
Their average unemployment rate is hovering around 14%. Ours is around 5%.
Our standard of living is higher. Our crime rates are lower. Our taxes are lower. We are the best. It’s lonely at the top. And they’re a bunch of cheese eating surrender monkeys.
I’m speechless.
Matthew Shepard was killed by men who are essentially no different than the worst Islamic thugs of Iraq or Palestine, not the U.S. Government. Harry Potter was boycotted by private (and completely insane) individuals - not banned by the state. This didn’t hurt JK Rowlings’ bank account in any measurable way. What are you arguing in favor of? Should it be illegal to boycott books in a free country? When we start executing people because they are gay and you can’t buy a Harry Potter book in America, I’ll be worried. Until then, Matthew Shepard was murdered, just like the thousands of other people murdered every year in America, and Christian fundamentalists are a bunch of lemmings suffering from some kind of yet-to-be-identified collective neurosis.
Any realistic, objective definition of “torture” is nothing like what went on at Abu Ghraib or Club Gitmo. There are people being shocked, dismembered, dipped in acid, and a host of other unimaginable things. Being forced to strip naked and form a pyramid - while disgusting and deplorable - is nothing like what goes on every day in the Middle East and totalitarian sewers across the world. To compare the two is an insult to people who actually have endured torture. Incidentally, people like myself would have a lot more time to condemn what when on in Abu Ghraib if we weren’t constantly having to remind the world of what that prison was like before coalition troops got there.
Oh, and I don’t think I’ve used the word “Jesus” once in this debate. I don’t mix politics and religion. Theocrats do that. It’s the theocrats of the world I’m dedicated to fighting. My personal religious beliefs have never - and will never - play a part in my political views. That’s why I have never mentioned any religious affiliation on my blog. So I think we can all agree that any church/state mingling is a bad thing, be it Christian, Islamic, Hindu, Jewish… whatever.
I can say without reservation that I don’t give a rat’s hind quarter what Europe thinks of us. They resided under the blanket of American protection for the entire Cold War, and now they think they know how to live, starting - ironically - with a reduction in defense spending. If they had spent 1/10th of what we did to defeat the Soviet Union, they might have a right to do that. They didn’t, and they don’t. Case closed.
…and they’re a bunch of cheese eating surrender monkeys.
I have supported the ousting of Saddam Hussein since I was nine years old. I honestly don’t care about WMDs (there is actually quite a lot of evidence that Hussein was planning to re-constitute his nuclear program, as well as acquire nuclear weapons from North Korea, but that’s aside the point for now). He was an enormous threat to his people, and the region he inhabited at best, and a huge threat to the free world at worst. He was destructive to free trade throughout his country. How you can defend leaving him in power any longer than he was already was is beyond me. The fact that the Administration hasn’t trumpeted this point is a sad one which I have no control over, but it doesn’t change the reality of the situation.
A few other random points:
I like pesticides. They keep produce prices low, meaning I - as well as others in my income bracket (low, that is) - can afford to eat them. Yay for pesticides.
Personally, I think there’s a good chance OBL is dead or dying. Even if he isn’t, he will be soon.
I never thought Saudi Arabia was our friend.
I like penguins.
I think that about wraps up all I have to say, at least for now.
Have a great weekend, everybody!
Long thread.
I just want to testify that Sean Rife does, in fact, suffer from asthma and, while not debilitating, it is sufficiently serious that I would not want to share a foxhole with him. Not because he is not an admirable person — quite the contrary — but if I’m in a foxhole, I want to share it with the biggest, strongest, baddest, healthiest person possible. But not a terribly brave one. Remember one of the ten rules of military service, “Never share a foxhole with anyone braver than you are”.
Sean is my son. When he was a teenager, it was galling to realize that there was this otherwise perfectly useful person under my roof who could not perform the basic task of son-dom — cutting the grass. Asthma. I mean, what else are teen boys good for? Why have them in the first place if they can’t subdue the sod in their own yard?
Just kidding, or course.
To insist that an argument’s validity is dependent upon the background or behavior of the arguer is a species of ad hominem (argument to the man) fallacy. It’s the equivalent of stating that a doctor cannot remove your appendix unless he has suffered appendicitis himself.
Spell check isn’t working.
“Tyler. Careful, or you’ll start sounding like Mr. Robertson.” I will not even dignify that with a response. Travis what, once again, you, the administration and the country seem to not understand is this is about religion. Just think about that for a moment… its about religion. “WE DO KNOW WHO THEY ARE.” Have your read the paper or listened to the news at all? Even Donald Rumsfeld says we do not. Do you know why? Because the enemy lies within peoples minds. Are we to just round up all those of Arabic decent into a firing squad. My good little polysci major while you read your books by our good friend Ayn as well as others champions of our cause please don’t forget to include a little history in there. No I don’t mean just of this country. Please look at the Protestant/Catholic wars of the 16th and 17th centuries. When God is on your side the war will never end. Think of it this way… can you name 5 names of our fallen soldiers? (I know you will come back and say yes I can… well then can the average American?) What does that say about us? On the other side of the world the men that are dying are Martyrs. Do you know how powerful that is? Their names will be revered for a thousand years. We cannot defeat that. No one can. There will be no military action ever… anywhere that can defeat the mind when it believes God is on its side. That is a lesson we, meaning humans, have learned over and over and over and over again through the “Long Dark Human History.” Unfortunately we keep forgetting it. This long and bloody battle we, not just Americans but humanity, have begun will not end in our life time.
Now to begin with my other thoughts… “Consider the tribes in Africa and the Sky Scrappers of America.” Why do you think that makes us so much better? Think of the shear waste of that sky scrapper. Think of how much food, water, paper, energy and a hundred other things involved with that skyscraper. I bet the biological footprint of that building is far great than that of an African Tribe. You remind of a king that sits atop his mountain of gold and says to his starving people below…”Look, look how great our land is that I have so much.” I will say once again that the true measure of greatness is not the power… it is the compassion of a people. The statement regarding crime in Europe as compared to America… Per ratio violent crime in America far, far exceeds that of any country in Europe. Example? (No I am not going into Michael Moore mode here… I find him to be a pompous A** just as you do.) How many rapes were committed in The Netherlands in the past 5 years? 6
I will like to revisit my comment last week. “What 9-11 taught us was its not a country that will beat us… its one crazy person with a bomb… just one person.”
You said you were speechless… as you should be. The truth often causes us to be so. Here is another truth. Right now there is a young child in Iraq or Afghanistan… take your pick. He/She is standing of the bodies of Mom and Dad who died fighting for their God. Who is that child going to turn too? Just as in America when crisis hits… to the church. They will tell that child, “Are you angry? Do you want to see you Mommy and Daddy again? Would you like to have revenge? Good Allah will bless you for this. Now please put on this backpack and walk into that building. Inside Mommy, Daddy and Allah are waiting for you.”
How can we combat that? Which child is it? What is our hope? Education sir, education. God was not defeated in America with weapons of war. He was defeated with an education. As you said regarding the question of intelligent design. “Because I am not it office yet.” Why do you not believe that dogma that is preached to us? Because you are educated.
P.S. (I say this in a Semi-Joking manor.) If you are serious about running for office… especially for as a republican… I would consider finding Jesus. I personally didn’t get the memo he was lost but that is beside the point.
Oh how cute… daddy came and made the bullies go away. Tim as I mentioned to your son before… military service in to always in a fox hole.
Clearly I meant… is not.
You just did.
That most of ‘us’ are comfortably dumb and unaware. Hence my future position in office will be as the result of those whom are aware enough to realize that naysayers like you are to be ignored like Mz. Clinton and Mz. Sheehan.
Apparently it is powerful for the simple minded, like you. Sorry for the personal attack, but the sheer irrelevance of that statement irked me.
And yes, we can defeat that. Remember history? Or do you just read books all day? Come on Tyler, do you really have an antithesis towards learning and thought in general or just when it comes to politics that are not Liberal?
But I digress… Oh yeah, history. Do you remember WWII? The Japanese suicide bombers? The kamikazes? After we kicked the snot out of them they haven’t done that again, we have changed their culture, and have not had issues like that ever since.
I realize that we are not necessarily fighting a State here, no duh. We are fighting an ideology, and as such we must wipe out of existence those who immediately pose a threat to our security and our interests. Secondly, we need to change the environment that breeds such an ideology; namely the madras’s and the mosques. It is a religion/ideology that leaves no room for anyone else. We are very accommodating, but cannot allow something like this to pose a threat on our planet. If you wish to pray 7 times a day towards Mecca to a small asteroid then so be it. If you want to kill everyone that does not do that, you got another thing coming… namely your own destruction.
Why does that question enter your mind? Think of how much skill, knowledge, and organization that took to create such a structure. Think of how much more productive such a creation makes us. Think of the ripple effect of such a creation. It far outweighs the huts in Africa. End of story.
Your conception of the producer is disgusting. You picture a man that achieves greatness (the Architect that built the skyscraper for instance) as an Attila that crushes and destroys all below and around him to achieve his goal. This is so far from the truth that it amazes me. What would one truly gain by destroying others? What? Why would he not trade with others to mutual benefit? That is the man of the mind that you seem to fear so much. The trader. You are comfortable with the concept of masters and slaves, of looters and moochers; but not of a man that can produce using the faculty of reason. The man of the mind. Why?
Oh, wow. I just got emotional and forgot to think…
The mom or dad that died fighting for their irrational delusion is probably in such a condition that they can be picked up with a sponge. Try to use less flowery happy stories when conveying a point.
Which was… “Who is that child going to turn too?”
Oh yes. To whom… well, if the child has a shred of rationality they will not see value in self sacrifice. Hopefully they will not attempt to block out reality like some people and live for his own sake neither sacrificing others to himself nor himself to others. Otherwise I guess we’ll count him as a martyr for you to remember and cherish the name of for thousands of years.
You’re coming around. Yes, it is by reason that I do not believe in tea leaf reading or fairies or leprechauns and the like.
Tyler, you lose a lot of strength in your arguments when you take jabs and personal attacks like this. Do be a dear and bring the intellectual level back up on your side or you’ll need your daddy or boyfriend to help you out. Sean can handle himself; no offense, but he doesn’t need me to argue on his behalf or his father for that matter.
Tyler:
Are you insinuating that I should now ban family members from independently affirming my past statements? With your pedomorphic comments being a striking, painful exception, this has been a good, civilized debate. If you want to go out to the playground and call people names, do it somewhere else. I’ll be damned if my comments section becomes a perpetual, juvenile flame war. That type of ideological excrement doesn’t fly here - it gets you banned.
…we now resume your regularly-scheduled debate.
Your response to the other remark my father made - about your argument being an ad hominem fallacy - is quite conspicuous by its absence.
I think it is quite interesting that you keep harping on this being a religious war. If you choose to define it that way, you do so to your own detriment. For you to admire martyrs in Iraq - people who fight for nothing less than an Islamic world government and the complete, unambiguous instatement of Sharia law across the globe (to say nothing of Iraq) - while at the same time bemoaning intolerance and religious persecution is the height of hipocracy.
It is quite ironic that at this particular juncture in history, liberals have promoted moral relativism to such an extreme degree that they can no longer defend liberalism. Their own failed ideology, when taken to its logical, extreme conclusion, buckles under its own weight and breaks down. Defending Matthew Shepard in one breath while promoting Iraqi insurgents to a level of admirability in another is an obscene kind of double-standard.
You promote education to the hilt, but the radical Arab culture you’re defending has been an intellectual cesspool ever since the Crusades (and don’t start with the “Christians pillaged the Spanish Arabs, destroyed their enlightened culture and stole their knowledge” line. I’ve heard the argument, and every bit of it is true. But it’s also completely irrelevent to the topic at hand.)
I have absolutely no idea whose “side” God is on, and I certainly wouldn’t wage war on the sole presumption that she is on ours (as a side: Just who comes up with these questions, anyway? Why am I being forced to even discuss this?) The Martyrs you admire so much do, though. They are absoultely certain that God is on their side. If you want to start tearing down the idea of a religiously-driven war, you’re starting on the wrong side by criticizing Western culture. We’re not the ones blowing ourselves up in supermarkets and shopping malls for the glory of Allah.
“Apparently it is powerful for the simple minded, like you.”
Right right… stay away from the personal attacks.
Do you remember WWII? The Japanese suicide bombers? The kamikazes? After we kicked the snot out of them they haven’t done that again, we have changed their culture, and have not had issues like that ever since.
Once again… try to actually understand this time… We could look on a map and see Japan. See the enemy. Here we cannot. Arguments like this are as frivolous as saying that Iraq right now is similar to the American Revolution.
I realize that we are not necessarily fighting a State here, no duh. We are fighting an ideology, and as such we must wipe out of existence those who immediately pose a threat to our security and our interests. Secondly, we need to change the environment that breeds such an ideology; namely the madras’s and the mosques. It is a religion/ideology that leaves no room for anyone else.
Wow… I think I have heard something like this before. Only it was hard to tell as those men where wearing sheets over their heads.
““Consider the tribes in Africa and the Sky Scrappers of America.” Why do you think that makes us so much better?”
Why does that question enter your mind? Think of how much skill, knowledge, and organization that took to create such a structure. Think of how much more productive such a creation makes us. Think of the ripple effect of such a creation. It far outweighs the huts in Africa. End of story.
Your right… if you consider the sheer waste of our environment then your right. BTW could you go into the dessert and find water? It outweighs the huts in Africa huh? I am sure all the waste produced from the building does outweigh the huts. The creator of the building is Attila in so long as the men that built the building struggle to survive while he feasts on the toils.
if the child has a shred of rationality
LOL That is the funniest thing I have ever read… a child that is able to think reasonably!
Sean I don’t keep calling this a religious war… clearly you have missed the past to years. The word is Jihad. Lets see how our old pal Mr. Webster defines that word.
Jihad:
A Muslim holy war or spiritual struggle against infidels.
Humm… that sounds somewhat religious to me. Also your choice in language while writing is rather self masturbatory don’t you think? Where in my writing have I ever “defended” their actions? Get your head out of the thesaurus and actually read. You comments disgust me. At first I thought this would be a nice forum to discuss the issues like an adult… oh wait I have to be actually talking to adults. One day, hopefully, you will graduate from college. There upon you will be welcomed into what I like to call, “The real world.” Why don’t you guys give me a shout then.
Tyler,
Perhaps proofreading your comments before submitting them would help make you sound slightly more intelligent than a gnat. Proper grammar aids in conveying your thoughts to others when in written form as well as when you are speaking. Good luck in the future with this.
I have previously stated that we are not fighting a State here. I grow tired of talking to a brick.
Dirka dirka.
The difference, my simple lib, is that we tolerate their existence in so far as they are not killing us. They do not tolerate anyone else regardless of any other conditions.
What do you not understand? When you see a plague coming you take action to prevent a further outbreak and attempt to lessen the results of that plague do you not? Same situation here. There are peaceful Muslims. A few are my friends. And then there are the virulent strain that blow themselves up. They just attained land to form a State by the way; Palestine. We’ll see how that works for the Nihilists.
Waste of the environment, eh? And yes, but could you find water in the dessert? Don’t answer that, because I don’t care.
So you would prefer that Man (capitalized to indicate all of mankind) live in huts and scavenge for food on a dusty plain? Human suffering and hard labor are noble? You would prefer that we not trade work, knowledge, or skill for money and that for our subsistence but rather that we use force against others to attain what we want like thugs? Would you prefer that Man not harm the environment by not breeding or breathing? Hopefully this anti-concept of yours is only temporary and when you come to visit the ‘real world’ you will realize that it is impossible to live like that. Surely this was a jest.
Speak Ebonics much? Or much too much? First off, Tyler, this is not a forum it is a blog. Secondly, give respect and you will receive respect. Guess who tripped on that one first?
Tyler:
If you’re threatened by the size of my vocabulary, I would suggest you expand yours instead of delivering menial insults in my direction. Spend a few months preparing for the GRE and you’ll notice that it increases exponentially (incidentally, this would also help to prevent you from combining words like “self” and “masturbatory.”)
The Jihadists may consider this a religious war, but that doesn’t make it so. I certainly don’t. There are plenty of people who don’t. If it were a religious war, one would expect our side to be made up exclusively of a religion other than radical Islam. It’s not. There are Christians, Jews, Hindus, and athiests on our side. In fact, it is our “godless” society which seems to piss them off so much. We’re not interested in defeating Islam, just its radical, violent wing.
Do you normally let people like Osama bin Laden set your terms? This seems like an unhealthy habit.
Do you actually pay attention to what you write? Your entire argument is a defense of radical Islam. I would quote you, but instead…. hell…. just look at anything you’ve written above. I don’t have to quote you. It’s the cruxt of your argument. Prove me wrong: Heap the same amount of criticism on Arab culture that you’re so happy to spew towards the West. If you’re so adamently against the Jihadists, show it. I certainly don’t avoid delivering blows to people like Falwell and Robertson.
All,
I will be out of State for the next few days. I shall return, however. I have some time released posts on my blog for the time that I’m gone. Hopefully funny/insightful stuff. But enough of a plug for my site. I’ve never had a comment thread this long on mine. Good job, Sean.
See ya’all later.
- Travis
Once again my simple minded friends, it doen’t matter if we view this to be a religious war… they do. The idea that I am defending them is purely your attempt to pat yourself on the back and say your right. What have I done to help our world? Try 24 months in the Peace Corp. I will say once again, and for the last time as I grow tried of trying to reason with you idiots, America deserves critisism. WIth out it big headed blowhards, such as yourself, will continue to believe that we are untouchable. As to educational level or vocabulary… I know for a fact I have a higher degree of education than either of you. Hope you both have a wonderful life and when you get out of the classroom and into the real world look me up.
Ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem. Truly the last vestige of a small mind.
In lieu of mentioning those 24 months again, why don’t you go get your lower ribs surgically removed? It’s people like you who keep reminding me why I don’t want to join the Peace Corp.
If you’re not defending them, how about providing an actual argument to that effect rather than making the same simplistic statement over and over again?
Oh, well. Have a good life, Tyler. ‘Twas fun.
Good call, sir. I look forward to what other literary wit you have in store in the rest of your comment. I hope the windows you lick do not have lead in them. Then again, that might explain some things… just saying…
… true? solid? valid? not disproved by your name calling? Perhaps the letter ‘s’ is broken on your keyboard. Pick up a new keyboard sometime. Silly simian Sally.
Not much given the size of the planet and the relatively non-famous name of “Tyler” with no website to call his own. Perhaps you have touched a few lives and improved them for those you did meet during your life, I hope you continue to. However, please don’t gloat about it, that’s where the charity ends and the ‘big headed blowhard’ part comes in…
Oh look, there is more!
So do the idiots that criticize America and try to blame it for all the ills of the world. Others need to take responsibility for themselves, or wait for the UN or the lovely Peace Corps to hand out their sustenance. Oh, and it’s ‘criticism’ by the way.
Reason? What with your hollow ‘arguments’ and defenses of the enemy trying to kill us [that includes you too by the way] you’re right! You are so rational when you say that America is to blame. Oh, how could I have overlooked that one? Do not speak of reason, for you know it not.
I enjoy puTTing CaPitAl LeTeRS wHere thEY are NOT neEdeD. Not to mention the lack of punctuation prowess that you sadly do not poses (with it[comma] big …). I believe from the rest of the rant and written verbal diarrhea that you were attempting to address both Sean and myself… so the proper word choice here should have been ’such as you two’ or ’such as you two geniuses’, you get the point. So I’m glad that your higher degree of education is paying off for you, seeing as you are debating yourself into nonexistence on a blog. I do it for fun, but you do it for the Peace Corps and the terrorists.
Thanks again. See you around.